Curse

NerfHerder · Jan 22, 2011, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

That might work, but then it wouldnt be possible to figure out what holds the record. Its painfully obvious that the record bars are going to be largely composed of sins. Because of this, the team is classified in terms of its spikers(manly, dwg, mesmerspike, etc).

This thread is getting really offtopic.

Quite the contrary. In fact, you hit the nail on the head.

Tender Care · Jan 22, 2011, 10:33 AM // 10:33

@nerfherder: i'm speaking about HM.....as i told ya a warrior boss with his elite attack can really more than halv ur hp bar...Plus consider the attack speed of HM mobs, this means that if u got a 75% block chance, every 10 attacks 2 of them hit; now assuming u are at 50% of ur hp and 1 elite attack hit, as well as unblockable skills, you're dead.

Infact the most SC's are not a "stay in the aggroo and take dmg since u have SF up". Is: run, aggroo, strike and run again.
Chest running as well is really hard in some areas having or not insignias, shield, skills and ur uber-pro skill in the game.

mage767 · Jan 22, 2011, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

@nerfherder: i'm speaking about HM.....as i told ya a warrior boss with his elite attack can really more than halv ur hp bar...Plus consider the attack speed of HM mobs, this means that if u got a 75% block chance, every 10 attacks 2 of them hit; now assuming u are at 50% of ur hp and 1 elite attack hit, as well as unblockable skills, you're dead.

Infact the most SC's are not a "stay in the aggroo and take dmg since u have SF up". Is: run, aggroo, strike and run again.
Chest running as well is really hard in some areas having or not insignias, shield, skills and ur uber-pro skill in the game.

Since you are much concerned about chest-running, let me point something out. It is quite easy to craft SF-based sin builds that will allow you to hunt chests in 99.99% of the game. I say this because I have tested chest-running using SF just about everywhere in the game: From the fire islands in Prophecies to the Echovald forest regions in Cantha to Torment regions in Nightfall.

However, it is not easy to run in all areas unless you have a few pve titles maxed out and use skills wisely (aka pro). Still, sin chest-runners are way over-powered than the next best running profession which is ranger.

Tender Care · Jan 22, 2011, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Since you are much concerned about chest-running, let me point something out. It is quite easy to craft SF-based sin builds that will allow you to hunt chests in 99.99% of the game. I say this because I have tested chest-running using SF just about everywhere in the game: From the fire islands in Prophecies to the Echovald forest regions in Cantha to Torment regions in Nightfall.

However, it is not easy to run in all areas unless you have a few pve titles maxed out and use skills wisely (aka pro). Still, sin chest-runners are way over-powered than the next best running profession which is ranger.

Dude i totally agree with you, I run anywhere in the game with SF build....i just say it's not easy....I also tried a chest running in Sorrow's Furnance having to open gates with kegs with an aggroo of 20 dwarves in frenzy u_u and did it...i just say it's not for in-experienced ppl and u ust have some pve skills and being pro at running in HM.
And i say this to support my thesis that Sf builds and not invincible!

Wrath of m0o · Jan 25, 2011, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

And i say this to support my thesis that Sf builds and not invincible!

lmao, then why is it the #1 build of all speedclears?

Bright Star Shine · Jan 25, 2011, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath of m0o

lmao, then why is it the #1 build of all speedclears?

Because it's best at it? You go try do everything with just SF up, see how "invincible" you'll be. You still need some skill to use it in the hardest areas..

This argument "SF is OP because it's used everywhere" is complete bullshit. SF is OP, yes, but not because it's used everywhere. It's used everywhere because it's just the best skill at what it's supposed to do.

Back when OF warriors or ele's were tanking, I didn't hear anyone QQ about "OF is too powerful because everyone uses it to tank". Why not? Because it's so obvious, OF was used to tank, because it was the best at it. Ok, you had 50% slower movement, but with bonds and the right build you were invincible back then. It was just an annoying, slow-ass skill..

Tender Care · Jan 25, 2011, 11:15 AM // 11:15

totally agree with Bright Star Shine.....SF is used cos it's good, not cos it's invincible....

jon comgree · Jan 25, 2011, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

clarify "invincibuild"

better yet, post an example of a build that is truly invincible in every single area of the game on its own.

i think you're more upset with how some professions utilize many defensive skills to give them specific protective advantages in certain in-game areas.

and that, my friend, is playing the game, knowing your enemy, and picking a synergistic skill-set to trump the area.

crying about how the game has evolved over 5 years won't bring back your prophecies glory days.

AGREED MATE!!!!!!!!!!!
ShadowForm is not overpowered mate-ive seen the world records page; We can do that with a combination of skills with shadowform just not shadowform itself. Show me an area (not beginners :P) where shadowform wouldnt suck except for tanking and speedclearing.

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Jan 25, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath of m0o

lmao, then why is it the #1 build of all speedclears?

So when people complain about "invicibuilds" and "god mode" and whatnot, is it safe to assume most of them are really objecting to the practice of speed clears?

Because that's really a different topic entirely.

Yes, SF sins make most SC teams work. But as has already been pointed out numerous times on this thread, they're not all that good for much else besides running.

When they nerfed SF last year they explained that they didn't want to destroy the overall functionality; they just wanted it to take a little more skill, thought, and coordination to use alone or as part of a team. I could be wrong, but I think that's what they got. They're not going to touch it again at this point.

drkn · Jan 25, 2011, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Being able to solo Frostmaw's HM is a 'bit' off the balance. Sure, you need some knowledge and practice, but that's all.
Being able to complete the UW HM in 7 min (yes, before skellies and other changes) is even more off the balance. It was designed and supposed to be hard, elite area, where players have to cooperate with each other, bring complementary builds and finally work as a real team in order to succeed. It got replaced by one-two guys doing the job, so that the others can handle their respective roles.

Bright Star Shine · Jan 25, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Being able to solo Frostmaw's HM is a 'bit' off the balance. Sure, you need some knowledge and practice, but that's all.
Being able to complete the UW HM in 7 min (yes, before skellies and other changes) is even more off the balance. It was designed and supposed to be hard, elite area, where players have to cooperate with each other, bring complementary builds and finally work as a real team in order to succeed. It got replaced by one-two guys doing the job, so that the others can handle their respective roles.

The UW 7min record also was back when SF was in the full meaning of the word "Invincible". You just couldn't die, no matter how hard you tried.. Only remotely annoying thing was Shock and that was it.. That why they did the Dhuum update. After that, dayway thrived untill SF got tuned down a bit.

And, the fact that you solo Fmaw actually has little to do with SF.. You know how it works? You run to the end of the levels, and glitch yourself through the door.. Which in fact is bug exploit.. When you reach Fmaw, you just pull him into a snowball to instakill him. An OF ele could do the same, it would just be slower and less convenient, because OF is just inferior to SF.. And ssins can jump around with their shadowsteps and stuff..

jon comgree · Jan 25, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

tbh-Fmaw solo can be done w/o glitching

itd be hard but its possible

Cuilan · Jan 26, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

totally agree with Bright Star Shine.....SF is used cos it's good, not cos it's invincible....

Yes, more than good enough to where you'll never have use for a paragon.

chris12xu · Jan 26, 2011, 01:05 AM // 01:05

paragons are used in doa for dwg.

its really a couple key skills that make speed clear possible not just sf. and saying these skills are forcing you to run a certain character and not letting you run anything you want in a pug group, your right. pugging an elite area is pretty selective in what you can bring. but depending on the area its around 4 classes in the team unless its sinway. if these skills are nerfed its going to just create a new meta. PuGs will then implement this new meta then they will be exclusive again. then you will complain about that too. I think the real problem is people wanting to do things in the most efficient and safest way possible...oh wait that's not a problem...

not signed

WarcryOfTruth · Jan 26, 2011, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Saying they'll find a new meta is something I can't agree with. If the skills that people are saying need to be nerfed get nerfed, what will people turn to? For instance, if they make Shadow Form and Obsidian Flesh unmaintainable, or change them in some way to affect what people use them for now, the only other skills people can use for spell prevention are Spell Breaker (only maintainable through echoing, maybe using cons it can be, but I am not 100% sure), Spell Shield (which, really, is anyone going to use for anything that Shadow Form is used for?), and Vow of Silence (which is maintainable easily, but as you guys know has a heavy draw back). Spell Breaker seems to be the most viable option, but requires Monk primary. Vow can maybe be used, but will require more skill to time skills properly. The next closest thing to either of these is Mist Form, which does not prevent spells, just physical damage, and is easily stripped.

So, with skills in their current functionality, I challenge you to create new meta builds people can use to work just as effectively, or somewhat less effectively, than the current ones. You cannot use Shadow Form or Obsidian Flesh in any bars you come up with. If you can show me that what you come up with works only slightly slower than a current meta bar (i.e if you make "new" UWSC bars that complete it in an hour and a half, that obviously doesn't do you justice), then I will be happy to shut up and I'll eat these words

.

Xiaquin · Jan 26, 2011, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris12xu

its really a couple key skills that make speed clear possible not just sf

This isn't about speed clears specifically, this is about builds that can make a player near or completely impervious to enemy attacks while still granting the same player the ability to clear an area.

If a player can go solo, in HM, and do such a thing, even if it's just one section of an elite area or a dungeon, that's invincibility; enemies cannot defeat the player due to flagrant advantage. Cons are undoubtedly an enabler as well, but there's even less chance of those being righteously nerfed and would spur an even bigger uproar by elitists.

Cuilan · Jan 26, 2011, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris12xu

paragons are used in doa for dwg.

Paragons are used in a specific clear (which doesn't even use Shadow Form), not a speed clear. Point being is the person I was replying to is a huge paragon fan.

chris12xu · Jan 26, 2011, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Saying they'll find a new meta is something I can't agree with. If the skills that people are saying need to be nerfed get nerfed, what will people turn to? For instance, if they make Shadow Form and Obsidian Flesh unmaintainable, or change them in some way to affect what people use them for now, the only other skills people can use for spell prevention are Spell Breaker (only maintainable through echoing, maybe using cons it can be, but I am not 100% sure), Spell Shield (which, really, is anyone going to use for anything that Shadow Form is used for?), and Vow of Silence (which is maintainable easily, but as you guys know has a heavy draw back). Spell Breaker seems to be the most viable option, but requires Monk primary. Vow can maybe be used, but will require more skill to time skills properly. The next closest thing to either of these is Mist Form, which does not prevent spells, just physical damage, and is easily stripped.

So, with skills in their current functionality, I challenge you to create new meta builds people can use to work just as effectively, or somewhat less effectively, than the current ones. You cannot use Shadow Form or Obsidian Flesh in any bars you come up with. If you can show me that what you come up with works only slightly slower than a current meta bar (i.e if you make "new" UWSC bars that complete it in an hour and a half, that obviously doesn't do you justice), then I will be happy to shut up and I'll eat these words

.

dont get me wrong i agree that a nerf of all forms of permanent spell protection would effectively drive a stake through the heart of speed clears. but that doesnt mean that people wont then create the next more effective way to farm the area. then it will be cleared that way and people will want to run that way. just becuase it doesnt include spell protection doesnt mean its a bring your own build type of thing. my impression is that most people have a problem with the exclusivity of speed clears if any class running any build could clear uw, dungeons, doa, or fow in the times that speed clears can i dont think many people would have a problem with it unless people actually want to spend 3 hours locked into a run. The point im trying to get across is that just becuase you nerf these builds it doesnt mean that people wont be just as exclusive in their runs. it might be a team setup like an emo a 2 warrior tanks, 4 mesmer spikers, and a UA monk (just made it up to provide an example) just as exclusive just slower. so if that case what did you really solve to make the game more enjoyable anyway?

and if this isnt a speed clear nerf topic then what is it about...becuase thats all these builds are used in. sf is used in a handful of farms that can be done by many different classes the only thing that actually requires these type of builds are indeed speed clears

and maybe dwg isnt a speed clear but it is a clear that is commonly used by pug groups you implied they were never used however they are in doa and even in some actual dungeon speedclears as well.

NerfHerder · Jan 26, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris12xu

and if this isnt a speed clear nerf topic then what is it about..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

This isn't about speed clears specifically, this is about builds that can make a player near or completely impervious to enemy attacks while still granting the same player the ability to clear an area.

Xiaquin gets it. While his description is more accurate, it would have made for a long thread title.

As I said in the OP, if 600 was nerfed why isnt SF? The irony is that the DTSC monk 600 was replaced with SF 600 and the SC times never changed. At least 600 requires you to have a bonder and you actually have to get hit in order to stay alive. The same is true of 55. OF is only usable by eles and they need a Mo or Me secondary that require them to be hit for energy management. But they never enabled SC times that involve SF. How is SF/ER invincibility, like the ones used in UWSC, any different than 600 invincibility? Not to mention, lore wise, how does it make any sense for an Assassin to have the best tanking skill? More than anything, I am asking for balance across the board.

End game content/dungeons in MMOs should be about a full party working side by side as a balanced team. A lone SF clearing a section by himself or a full team of SF doesnt count. If this were any other game that would have been nerfed long ago.

Volo · Jan 26, 2011, 05:15 PM // 17:15

well if u find sf op than why dont they nerf dwg while they are at it... oh wait while they are nerfing dwg, why dont they nerf panic or any other skill that is op. why dont u read the dwg thread and see why ppl dont want anet to nerf dwg